The HD News & Technology Thread!

Discuss High Definition Technology & Releases
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The HD News & Technology Thread!

Unread postby tom2681 » 22 Dec 2005, 01:26

What do you think of HD?
Last edited by tom2681 on 07 Nov 2006, 14:17, edited 3 times in total.
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Unread postby Markgway » 22 Dec 2005, 02:05

I don't know enough about the whole thing yet... I'll just wait and see what transpires. But at present I'm fine with DVD. So this new shit better be damn good and cheap (and play ALL my current collection) if I'm going to even look twice.
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Unread postby tom2681 » 22 Dec 2005, 03:20

this new shit better be damn good and cheap

Won't be cheap, that's for sure.
These coasters will be at least 25% more expensive than DVDs.
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Unread postby grim_tales » 22 Dec 2005, 09:14

I'm like Mark, I'll wait and see what happens. I hope it plays ALL my current collection.
At some point I'll surely upgrade to HD TV as well, just not yet (don't know enough about it) :D

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Unread postby Yi-Long » 22 Dec 2005, 10:30

I will ne waiting for the HD TVs to go down in price till they are at a normal level. Only then will I'll be swithing over. I doubt I'll be replacing all my current DVDs with HD versions, but depends on how they will look on a HD-screen... (if the old ones suddenly look like shit, I guess I'll be forced to change...)
However, I think it will be at least a year before I'll be getting a HD screen (unless I migrate to Canada or HK or something...), and only when I have a HD screen I'll be getting a xbox 360and a HD dvd player. Dont know what it will be: blue ray or HD or whatever. I'll just take the best and affordable option.
I doubt the price of the new DVDs will be much higher then the current prices... simply cause DVD was such a tremedous succes that many people already have most movies they want on DVD...
The new format cant afford to price itself out of the market, because everyone is still very happy and satisfied with the current quality. So first they NEED the prices of HD screens to go down, just so the market for it and HD DVDs grows, and only then can the new format be a success...
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Unread postby bradavon » 22 Dec 2005, 17:23

I voted for:

I'm waiting for a winner to emerge

But really I'd have voted for:

I'll wait for HD to be a reasonable price.

Which I've just added in.

There may never be a true winner and tbh it doesn't really matter. DVD+ and DVD- are doing fine, as is DVD-A/SACD. I can see dual supporting players coming out and that's fine really.

Of course it won't help sales and will add to confusion but the companies that be don't seem to care.

p.s - That is assuming it takes off, there are hundreds of dead formats or formats that only partially took off (VCD being one of them).

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Unread postby Markgway » 22 Dec 2005, 19:12

Tom2681 wrote:These coasters will be at least 25% more expensive than DVDs.


Then they can stick them up their 25% larger arses!!

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Unread postby bradavon » 22 Dec 2005, 19:18

What makes you say that Tom? Why would they be coaster?

There is a market value that they can't go above, as people simply won't pay. Sure at first they maybe £25 each but they'll soon come down to £10-15 each.

The same goes for the likes of HK where they'll be dirt cheap.

I'd be very surprised if the eventual players won't be able to play CDs and DVDs. The discs are going to be the same size as CDs specifically for this reason.

p.s - Is there any advantage of HD-DVD over Blue Ray or is it like DVD+ and DVD-?

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Unread postby tom2681 » 23 Dec 2005, 04:45

Brad wrote:here are hundreds of dead formats or formats that only partially took off (VCD being one of them).

Not completely true about VCD. In asia, the VCD market is still stronger than the DVD market.
But yeah, there's Betamax vs VHS, CD-DTS vs SACD/DVD-A...

Brad wrote:There may never be a true winner and tbh it doesn't really matter. DVD+ and DVD- are doing fine, as is DVD-A/SACD.

I strongly disagree. If there had been a winner in the DVD-A/SACD/CD-DTS war, everybody would have started using the winning format, and CD-Audio would have died, just like VHS tapes.
The only reason why DVD-Video worked as well as it did is because there was no competition.

Brad wrote:I can see dual supporting players coming out

AFAIK only Samsung have announced that they would "like" to create dual-HD-DVD players.

-These coasters will be at least 25% more expensive than DVDs.
-What makes you say that Tom?

It is a well-known fact that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs are more expensive to produce. Ergo: they will be more expensive to us.

There is a market value that they can't go above, as people simply won't pay

That's what I believed in 1996 when DVD came out. We used to pay 15€ (£10) for a VHS tape, but then we got used to paying 30€ (£20) for a DVD.
And I'm sure loads of people will get used to paying 45€ (£30) for HD-DVDs when they come out.

I doubt that HD-DVD will be sold as "the successor to DVD".
I believe that it will be sold as a high quality product for people who want the best audio/video quality (and who don't mind paying for it).

Is there any advantage of HD-DVD over Blue Ray

Good question. I can't tell, because the specs aren't really finalized yet.
So far it looks like HD-DVD is in the lead (ready to ship), and Blu-Ray is trying very hard to get back in the race.
HD-DVD will support multiple video and audio codecs (Mpeg-2/Mpeg-4/AC3/DTS/AAC) while Blu-Ray should stick to Mpeg-2.
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Unread postby gojensen » 23 Dec 2005, 11:04

Erm... no...
BluRay supports MP4 and company, it's just that Sony will probably use MPEG2 (at least in the beginning) as they own parts of that standard, and not of MPEG4. Hence cheaper for them ;)

So the poll is loaded with inaccurate details... hence invalid :D

Basically there are a few things separating HD from BR...
- technology of the disc
- interactive layer (MicroSoft IHD vs. the Worlds Java)
- MANDATORY managed copy (only with HD yet)
- companies backing (where BR is the winning amongs CONTENT)

We may end up seeing a world where BR is used for home entertainment whereas HD is used for the computer industry. This would probably suit the Hollywood Execs greatly as no option to pirate discs would be easily available.

Though, I find it saddening that they STILL wanna stick with Region coding... :(
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Unread postby tom2681 » 23 Dec 2005, 11:26

the poll is loaded with inaccurate details... hence invalid


Most of the specs are based on rumours.
I just put the most persistent ones in the poll.
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Unread postby gasteropod » 23 Dec 2005, 18:46

What are DVD+ and DVD-?

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Unread postby gojensen » 24 Dec 2005, 09:15

Standards for (re)writable DVD discs... comes in DVD+R, DVD-R, DVD+RW and DVD-RW (if we totally IGNORE the "fiasco" DVD-RAM).

And if you look about most of the specs for both HD and BR have been set in stone for quite some time. Remember that Toshiba wanted to start selling HD-DVD players this Xmas. What is not quite yet set in stone is the copy protection - which they are still fiddling with and the region coding... (AFAIK). Oh, and Microsoft VC1 is one of the codecs elected for HD-DVD (not sure if it's in on Blu-Ray). Add that to the Microsoft driven IHD info layer and we can see why they keep bashing Blu-Ray :D
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Unread postby saltysam » 26 Dec 2005, 21:54

as playstation 3 will be using blu-ray,that's what's going to win imo
working class blu-ray fan

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Unread postby bradavon » 27 Dec 2005, 05:01

Tom2681 wrote:Not completely true about VCD. In asia, the VCD market is still stronger than the DVD market.

Yes it is. You missed a key word:

"there are hundreds of dead formats or formats that only partially took off (VCD being one of them)."

:D (even if partially is probably to loose a word).

I strongly disagree. If there had been a winner in the DVD-A/SACD/CD-DTS war, everybody would have started using the winning format, and CD-Audio would have died, just like VHS tapes.
The only reason why DVD-Video worked as well as it did is because there was no competition.

Guess what I strongly disagree back at you :-D

DVD+ and DVD- are both thriving for one and the simple reason DTS CD, Gold CD, HD CD (a joke, HD yeah right), DVD-A, SACD haven't taken off is because they're to Joe Public not a big leap forward.

Joe Public says: "Huh I can already skip tracks, listen to clear digital music".

DVD vs. VHS (and even VCD) is a huge leap forward.

DTS CD is actually a decent format, that you only need a DTS Decoder to make it work (i.e - most on this forum could use it). It's brash compared with DVD-A/SACD but that's to be expected it's no HD Audio.

I have a handful of DTS CDs, some of the albums are exclusive to it (i.e - from a Audio Surround point of view).

What's really killing DVD-A/SACD is the lack of software.

I think this is because it takes time to create a 5.1 mix and because not a lot of people even know the formats exist most studios don't bother to spend the time/money to create them.

The selection is still woeful (I have something like 2-3 SACD discs and 5-6 DVD-A discs). Why aren't all Sony CDs Hybrid SACD?

Sting's Sacred Love sold bucket loads, sure not because of the SACD layer but it was there regardless.

I doubt that HD-DVD will be sold as "the successor to DVD".
I believe that it will be sold as a high quality product for people who want the best audio/video quality (and who don't mind paying for it).

Yeah I agree with you here.

AFAIK only Samsung have announced that they would "like" to create dual-HD-DVD players.

So far! The formats aren't even out yet.

gojensen wrote:We may end up seeing a world where BR is used for home entertainment whereas HD is used for the computer industry.

I could see that but I can equally see computer dual drives coming out.

Though, I find it saddening that they STILL wanna stick with Region coding... :(

Especially when even they must see it's mostly a joke.

gojensen wrote:if we totally IGNORE the "fiasco" DVD-RAM

It's a pity as DVD-RAM excels in every area over DVD- OR DVD+ . It's a much better format.

It's such a shame it never really took off. It makes a good backup device though (it's much stronger at lasting than DVD- or DVD+).

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Unread postby sky75 » 30 Dec 2005, 16:50

I'm staying with DVD (it's not worth the upgrade)... Besides I can't afford it when it does eventually go on sale.

I perhaps may upgrade down the line but the price of players, HD compatible TV's will need to drop drastically before I commit to HD. I also think the format war needs to be settled even though I firmly believe blu ray will be the eventual winner because unlike HD DVD they are going to have the biggest choice of movies.

Currently all the major studios with the exception of Universal will be releasing movies on Blu Ray, Universal will no doubt follow suit and release on both formats sooner or later. Whereas HD DVD will never release all films from all studios. There are currently several large studios that plan to only release on Blu Ray plus Columbia TriStar and MGM who will never commit to HD DVD because they are owned by Sony the makers of blu ray.

Whether or not either of these two formats will replace DVD is another matter. I can't see that the mass public are going to spend even more money after buying hundreds of DVDs, they aren't going to want to buy them all again when they are perfectly happy with what they have got.

I think another area where blue ray has the edge is in its capacity. I believe currently it can hold around 50 gigabytes on a dual layer disc and if I remember correctly they have managed to get between four and six layer discs to work, meaning 100 gigabyte+discs. This could also be an advantage in the computer market since HD DVD can only be produced with three layers MAX and if I remember correctly they can only hold in the region of 50 gigabytes.

Both formats could be problematic for movie fans who import discs from all over the world as the copy and region protection could prevent this. I read somewhere that even if the copy protection/region coding was broken they could update your player by including new code on future releases of new titles re locking your player or potentially shutting it down.

I also read about the need for an internet connection which would mean they could act like Big Brother knowing exactly what you watch and when you watch it. Personally this could be the death nail in either format for me as I like my privacy to be respected. I also think that this is because they want the players to be able to download the latest licences and if you don't your player may cease to play new discs!

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Unread postby sky75 » 30 Dec 2005, 17:05

It's a pity as DVD-RAM excels in every area over DVD- OR DVD+ . It's a much better format.

It's such a shame it never really took off. It makes a good backup device though (it's much stronger at lasting than DVD- or DVD+).


DVD - Ram can also act like a hard drive so you could be recording on the disc and at the same time watch something you've already recorded on the DVD.

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Unread postby IronMonkey » 30 Dec 2005, 18:38

DVD-RAM is a fantastic format and is certainly not dead or dying. Last time I read figures it basically had 90% of the Japanese home recording (i.e. under the TV) market tied up with DVD-RAM machines, and 80% of the US market too.

In the UK I think it is a little less than that as most people are cheapskates & only want the cheapest product! Every DVD recorder I have ever sold where I work is DVD-RAM compatible and all the better for it.

I have a DVD-RAM drive on my PC at home & it is excellent for backing up files. I wouldn't even dream of using anything other than DVD-RAM discs for backups of important stuff.
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Unread postby bradavon » 30 Dec 2005, 19:01

You're saying 80% of the home DVD Recorder market is DVD-RAM? I'm not asking if the machine supports it but if people ACTUALLY use it?

But what about US DVD Players? That's the crux for me, it's not much use if I can't play the DVDs back in standard DVD Players.

I use my MP3 Player as my backup device (it's UMS compatible, i.e - like card readers). I have an important Software DVD-RW which I should put on DVD-Ram you're right.

p.s - You must only sell high end equipment then?

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Unread postby sky75 » 02 Jan 2006, 13:07

Aren't Panasonic the only company that sell DVD-Ram set top players/recorders?

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Unread postby sky75 » 02 Jan 2006, 13:19

Blu-Ray all the way ! (Mpeg-2, 25 gb, more expensive)

HD-DVD baby ! (Mpeg-4, 30 gb)


I just noticed on your voting options that you have Blu Ray down for 25 gigabytes which is correct for single layer discs but you have used dual layer HD DVD discs as a comparison, so really it should say 50 gigabytes for Blu Ray. :)

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Unread postby tom2681 » 02 Jan 2006, 13:44

Yes, but dual layer Blu-Ray discs aren't ready yet. :D

Each format is hiding behind a smoke screen, saying that they are better than their opponent.

Actually I'm quite sure that all the numbers are incorrect (15-30 gb for HD-DVD; 25-50 gb for Blu-Ray). I guess we'll find out when they are sitting on our shelves. :)
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Unread postby IronMonkey » 02 Jan 2006, 15:01

bradavon wrote:You're saying 80% of the home DVD Recorder market is DVD-RAM? I'm not asking if the machine supports it but if people ACTUALLY use it?


I don't know about people actually using it, but I know all my customers do simply because it is the best system to use for home TV recording - edit out adverts, erase individual watched programs to recover used capacity, watch one program from the disc whilst recording another, etc...

bradavon wrote:But what about US DVD Players? That's the crux for me, it's not much use if I can't play the DVDs back in standard DVD Players.


I don't know about in the US, but over here a lot of players support the DVD-RAM format now, especially those from Panasonic and JVC, and I think Toshiba & LG too.

bradavon wrote:p.s - You must only sell high end equipment then?


Just Panasonic. We don't sell anything else.
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Unread postby tom2681 » 05 Jan 2006, 15:00

HD is here.

Here's a list of titles that will be released during the year:
http://www.dvdalliance.com/article.php? ... ad&order=0

The first titles on the list are written in French but all the others are in english.

Nothing that really stands out so far...
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Unread postby bradavon » 05 Jan 2006, 15:07

IronMonkey wrote:I don't know about people actually using it, but I know all my customers do simply because it is the best system to use for home TV recording - edit out adverts, erase individual watched programs to recover used capacity, watch one program from the disc whilst recording another, etc...

Nope that would be a Hard disk recorder and then DVD-RAM for backing up :wink:

IronMonkey wrote:I don't know about in the US, but over here a lot of players support the DVD-RAM format now, especially those from Panasonic and JVC, and I think Toshiba & LG too.

The thing is with the exception of LG in your list most people don't buy the big names in AV.


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