Europe unites to deplore Swiss ban on minarets

[bradavon]

Which ones? All my quotes say "Mark said" .

[Yi-Long]

Which ones? All my quotes say "Mark said" .

Weird. When I looked earlier, there were 2-3 lines which were quoted under my name, but are now under Mark's name.
(The xenophobic quote, and the one underneath that one...)

[Markgway]

Isn't Switzerland secular though, not Christian per se (just like UK?)?

The UK is a Christian country. We're just constantly told it isn't by supporters of multi-culturalism. It's like if you say somethng enough it becomes true.

There are 400,000 Muslims but just 4 minarets, hardly a big number.

Besides the point.

Building the House of Scotland isnt the same as a church/mosque or something as one is just cultural.

Ah, so my culture is less important/relevant that religion?

[Markgway]

How is a ban ever freedom of expression? Obviously I take your point but it's not freedom of expression but is democratic.

It's a paradox granted. But Swiss voters had their say. You can't argue with that. Would be nice if that was attempted in the UK at some point (unlikely I know).

Why? It's not as if they're ugly on the eye. You're as xenophobic as Romero sometimes.

Lol... I was wondering when you'd come out with a label. I had my money on racist. And to me they're ugly. Regardless of aesthetic appeal I don't like the symbolism. I don't like religion. I don't like Islam. What's confusing about that? I can only speak for myself. I have no fear of foreigners - which as I already explained to Yi-Long is the defenition of xenophobia.

Like there'd ever be a vote to ban church spirals.

There wouldn't because this is still primarily a Christian country and no such vote would be passed even if it was run. I'm talking in principle. I accept that even though I am not Christian this is a Christian country. I'm not out to change that.

That doesn't mean we should be doing the same.

Maybe it does? Maybe minorities in any country should except that they are minorites and not expect the same level of clout as the majority. Personal belief is a right. A place of worship is a courtesy. No religion has any right to demand their needs be catered for.

Don't forget their are roughly 400,000 Muslims in Switzerland of a population of roughly 7 million, that's not a minority.

That's only slightly bigger than Scotland. 400,000 is a sizeable minority - but still a minority. In order for it not to be a minority it would have to be (going by your figure) 350,001. If the minarets got a 51% positive vote we wouldn't be having this debate now.

[Markgway]

Hundreds of years of migration and colonisim. You forget the British people have made entire countries white, taking their culture with them and in a much stronger manner than Islam has ever achieved.

I never said that was right. In the past whites were as guilty as anyone - more so. This isn't about colour. Are you saying that because Christians once colonised countries it would be reasonable in the 21st century for Islam to do the same? Britain enjoys citizens of varied cultural backgrounds. That does not make it a multi-cultural country. It's a Christian country that respects non-Christian cultures. Key difference.

No there should be tolerance. Having come back from India recently it was such a joy to come across in only 3 weeks 5 religions and all of them managing to coexist without problem, for the most part.

There is tolerance. Lots of tolerance in the UK. We're the most tolerant nation on earth. I tolerate religion. Doesn't mean I have to approve of or endorse it. Anytime I see something which serves to increase the presence of religion I come out against it. What I don't appreciate is when minority religions are given dispensation that Christianity isn't. That happens all too often in the UK.

I said once: "I'd love to meet a Black Female Gay Muslim. That would be cool. Fuck with the world's ridiculous prejudices". People thought I was joking. I wasn't.

No one thinks you're joking Brad. We all know you're deadly serious. Gay Muslim? Is that allowed? Better check with LD on that one.

[bradavon]

Weird. When I looked earlier, there were 2-3 lines which were quoted under my name, but are now under Mark's name.
(The xenophobic quote, and the one underneath that one...)

I may have still be editing the posts. I sometimes post what I've typed (in case I lose what's in the clipboard) and then EDIT to add the next batch of quotes .

The UK is a Christian country.

Except it isn't, not when you put it that way anyway and Christanity is on the bloody decline too. By that token The UK is a "white" country.

It's a paradox granted. But Swiss voters had their say. You can't argue with that. Would be nice if that was attempted in the UK at some point (unlikely I know).

Agreed. I said originally it's good the majority are being listened to .

That's only slightly bigger than Scotland. 400,000 is a sizeable minority - but still a minority. In order for it not to be a minority it would have to be (going by your figure) 350,001.

Have I missed something? That's less not more.

If the minarets got a 51% positive vote we wouldn't be having this debate now.

Of course not because nothing would be banned and the majority were still listened to. What's to debate?

I never said that was right. In the past whites were as guilty as anyone - more so. This isn't about colour.

Of course not. I was just drawing a comparison.

Are you saying that because Christians once colonised countries it would be reasonable in the 21st century for Islam to do the same? Britain enjoys citizens of varied cultural backgrounds. That does not make it a multi-cultural country.

I don't believe Islam is anywhere near as big a threat as many seem to think, save for terrorism obviously but that's an entirely different discussion. Personally I'd say Britain is multi-cutlural and has been for hundreds of years now. In your opinion which country is multi-cultural? America maybe.

There is tolerance. Lots of tolerance in the UK. We're the most tolerant nation on earth. I tolerate religion.

Agreed we have lots to be proud of how tolerant we are but I wouldn't say The UK is the most tolerant country in the world. If I "had" to pick a country I'd say America is more tolerant of outsiders, except Mexicans, which makes it an impossible question to answer.

Anytime I see something which serves to increase the presence of religion I come out against it.

Why? I'm no more religious than you are but I see no harm it existing or being around me. I also see religion brings happiness to millions of people worldwide and that cannot be a bad thing.

What I don't appreciate is when minority religions are given dispensation that Christianity isn't. That happens all too often in the UK.

Isn't it only Islam? Because the "terrorist" factor.

Gay Muslim? Is that allowed? Better check with LD on that one.

I seriously doubt it but I'm sure it exists.

[Shingster]

Which ones? All my quotes say "Mark said" .

Weird. When I looked earlier, there were 2-3 lines which were quoted under my name, but are now under Mark's name.
(The xenophobic quote, and the one underneath that one...)

Oh bugger, I edited the post myself and forgot to post about it! icon_suspect

[Markgway]

Except it isn't, not when you put it that way anyway and Christanity is on the bloody decline too. By that token The UK is a "white" country.

Christianity may well be on the decline but it's still as of 2009 the dominant religion. I would say that makes Britain a Christian country. The vast majority of British citizens are white. I would say that therefore makes Britain a white country. That's not to say non-whites or non-Christians are forbidden or unwelcome. I'm just stating fact. There are many countries in the world where Asians are the majority and Muslims are the majority. Would you not refer to them Asian and Muslim countries? I would. I'm sure most would. Unless they were trying to peddle this multi-cultural myth. Only America is truly a multi-cultural country.

Have I missed something? That's less not more.

Oops. I meant majority. Well spotted.

I don't believe Islam is anywhere near as big a threat as many seem to think, save for terrorism obviously but that's an entirely different discussion.

From the average Muslim, probably not. But fanatic Muslims are a particularly vocal minority and the UK seems to breed them more than anywhere outside of Asia. It's sadly well known in the international community that England is home to a significant proportion of the world's Muslim extremists. That's not tolerance - that's dangerous stupidity on our part. We should consider ourselves lucky Nato didn't invade us! It's also worth remembering that a fundemental aspect of Sharia Law is to spread the word by any means. Maybe a minaret is just a minaret... maybe it's something more?

In your opinion which country is multi-cultural? America maybe.

Yes, that's its foundation. Aside from the poor natives (who got royally fucked over) America has been home to immigrants from across the globe. There is no indiginous religion or colour.

If I "had" to pick a country I'd say America is more tolerant of outsiders, except Mexicans, which makes it an impossible question to answer.

Perhaps true, but America is exempt IMO because it's an entire country of outsiders. If you find a family that goes back a couple of generations you're lucky. Asia, Europe, Africa... the USA is a melting pot.

Why? I'm no more religious than you are but I see no harm it existing or being around me. I also see religion brings happiness to millions of people worldwide and that cannot be a bad thing.

It's just something I strongly dislike. I know not all aspects of religion are evil and there are so many good people who share faith. I don't want to come across as a total hatemonger. We've learnt so much about the planet(s) and about evolution in the last hundred years that to see people in their billions cling to fairy tales sticks in my throat. It's just how I feel. But religious believers shouldn't be afraid of me.

Isn't it only Islam? Because the "terrorist" factor.

Largely, yes. Britain bends over backwards not to offend Islam and will even offend Christianity as a means of proving their deference and "fairness". Random example: a woman is not allowed to wear a cross, but her colleague can wear a turbin. I know that's Sikh, but the left is terrified of being called racist (because that's their stick to beat the right with). You don't need to look far to find similar examples occuring every day.

I seriously doubt it but I'm sure it exists.

If I find one I'll pass on your contact details...

[grim_tales]

In practice the UK is a secular country these days. Very few people go to church.
Of course your culture is important Mark, and everyone should be proud of their culture. Aren't there Saudi Scots too? Would they also embrace their Scottishness while living in Saudi Arabia?
I'd say Australia is a very tolerant/multicultural country as well.

[bradavon]

Oh bugger, I edited the post myself and forgot to post about it! icon_suspect

Ah .

[bradavon]

Christianity may well be on the decline but it's still as of 2009 the dominant religion.

7 out of 10 in 2003:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 876739.ece

I would say that makes Britain a Christian country.

I still disagree. That's way too absolute.

The vast majority of British citizens are white. I would say that therefore makes Britain a white country.

Again too absolute.

I'm just stating fact. There are many countries in the world where Asians are the majority and Muslims are the majority. Would you not refer to them Asian and Muslim countries?

Asian is very different from White. In terms of religion it depends how many non-Muslims also live there.

From the average Muslim, probably not. But fanatic Muslims are a particularly vocal minority and the UK seems to breed them more than anywhere outside of Asia.

Agreed. I dislike how extreme the patriotism is in America but it does deal well with going against this.

It's sadly well known in the international community that England is home to a significant proportion of the world's Muslim extremists. That's not tolerance - that's dangerous stupidity on our part.

Agreed. The UK is so ridiculously PC it gets stupid. Most schools are even scarred of having nativity plays any more.

Random example: a woman is not allowed to wear a cross, but her colleague can wear a turbin. I know that's Sikh, but the left is terrified of being called racist (because that's their stick to beat the right with). You don't need to look far to find similar examples occuring every day.

Agreed. It stinks. Didn't a woman get fired from British Airways for refusing to hide her cross?

[grim_tales]

Yeah that's right Brad. Her cross was only very small, about 5p piece size FFS, I can't see why/how anyone can be offended by that.

[Markgway]

7 out of 10 in 2003

A majority. If it was 5/10 (or less) I would agree with you. But at present the UK is still Christian. That's not to say everyone in it is Christian. Same goes for race. Majority are white. Those are facts. You can't change them to suit a multi-cultural ideology (as much as politicians try).

Asian is very different from White.

How so?

In terms of religion it depends how many non-Muslims also live there.

I don't think you can draw a line between a country that has 2% immigrants and 5% immigrants. It's still a significant minority. I'm sure the UK has more Asian immigrtants than most Asian countries have caucasian but it's splitting hairs a bit. The principle is sound.

Agreed. I dislike how extreme the patriotism is in America but it does deal well with going against this.

It can be extreme... but mostly it's just profound. Compared to the English Americans must seem extreme but in the grand scheme I'm not so sure. Scots can be every bit as bad (depending on your viewpoint) as Americans. There's nothing 'we' love to talk about more than Scotland and Scottishness.

Most schools are even scarred of having nativity plays any more.

The grubby hole where I'm from even changed the long traditional Christmas Tree Lighting ceremony to "Winter Light Night" so as to be "all inclusive". Ah, bless. They cut the carol singing and any mention of anything remotely Christian.

Didn't a woman get fired from British Airways for refusing to hide her cross?

Yes.

Here's a site which may interest you:

http://www.religiouswatch.com/index.htm

[bradavon]

How so?

Because one is a skin colour and the other where you or your family's heritage comes from.

Thailand is an Asian country.
The UK isn't a White country. There are just too many Non-Whites to call it that. It is a European country though. Does that make sense? It's quite different.

It can be extreme... but mostly it's just profound. Compared to the English Americans must seem extreme but in the grand scheme I'm not so sure. Scots can be every bit as bad (depending on your viewpoint) as Americans. There's nothing 'we' love to talk about more than Scotland and Scottishness.

How they have to pledge allegiance "every" bloody morning during school time is extreme IMO.

The grubby hole where I'm from even changed the long traditional Christmas Tree Lighting ceremony to "Winter Light Night" so as to be "all inclusive". Ah, bless. They cut the carol singing and any mention of anything remotely Christian.

How come they've not banned hymn time too? It's so illogical.

[gasteropod]

The UK isn't a White country. There are just too many Non-Whites to call it that. It is a European country though. Does that make sense? It's quite different.

I see England as a white country, but to be fair where I live it is predominantly white.

[Shingster]

The UK isn't a White country. There are just too many Non-Whites to call it that. It is a European country though. Does that make sense? It's quite different.

You know brad I would love it if just once, just once you checked your facts before posting dribble like this. A simple google search would reveal to you that the UK is estimated to be just over 90% white by population. I don't know what your definition of a "White Country" is, but if you think the UK doesn't qualify then I suggest you re-examine your definition! icon_suspect

[Markgway]

The UK isn't a White country. There are just too many Non-Whites to call it that. It is a European country though. Does that make sense?

Not to me given that most European countries - with the exception Turkey and Spain - are white. In America whites are described as being of European ethnic origin for that reason. It's a primarily white continent. That's not to say there aren't non-whites if you get me. Of course Asian can refer to many different countries as Asia is a continent. Maybe Arabic or middle eastern would be more specific in terms of who we're talking about.

How they have to pledge allegiance "every" bloody morning during school time is extreme IMO.

I don't think we in Jockland have implimented that yet.

How come they've not banned hymn time too? It's so illogical.

I think the hymns were also cancelled. Like I said I've no problem with downgrading anything religious... BUT it does matter why they're doing the downgrading and if it's for reasons of political correctness that gets on my tits. I can play devil's advocate on this one. Unfortunately Muslims often get the blame for the actions of WHITE liberals. Most Muslims have no problem with Xmas - and neither should they in this country. Some even join in (up to a point, natch).

[bradavon]

Unfortunately Muslims often get the blame for the actions of WHITE liberals. Most Muslims have no problem with Xmas - and neither should they in this country.

Exactly. It's so dumb!

Spain's as much a "white country" as The UK is .

[Markgway]

It's long be debated whether or not Spaniards are 'white' mainly because of the Moors' one-time domination of their country which changed the genetic make-up. For all intents and purposes they probably are white but it's not really an important point in this debate. I just singled them out (with Turkey) in case someone brought it up.

[thelostdragon]

You guys still talking about skin colours?
Drop me a line when you start talking about the human beings under those skins again.

[bradavon]

WTF? . Didn't you know? We're all a bunch of racists here.

[Yi-Long]

Like I mentioned before, these people are part of our countries (as they should be), and they pay taxes, so I don't mind there also being religious buildings being here for them to go and pray.

I really don't see the huge problem with muslims and islamic influence in 'our' culture.

That being said, personally ofcourse I'm an atheist. But others are free to believe whatever they want, as long as they don't (try to) enforce their beliefs and will upon others who don't.

[Markgway]

Then if there's a vote in Holland we know which way you'll go.

[Yi-Long]

Then if there's a vote in Holland we know which way you'll go.

I'm not one who likes to forbid others things they want to have/do, when it makes no sense to do so.

You can have 'democratic' votes on everything, and in the end, the dumb majority will just ban/forbid everything...

We live in a 'free' society, with many different kinds of people. Yeah that brings some occasional problems and discussions and fears, but frustrating them every opportunity we can for no reason at all, is not the way these problems will go away.

[Markgway]

You can have 'democratic' votes on everything, and in the end, the dumb majority will just ban/forbid everything...

So are you saying that there shouldn't be democracy in case the public makes the wrong decision?