No End in Sight (Iraq-documentary)

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 20 Mar 2008, 00:47

Just watched this documentary tonight on TV. It shows very very clearly how the Americans just completely messed up in the biggest way possible, after the invasion.
Firing all the Iraqi soldiers, putting people in charge of projects who were clearly underqualified, wasting way too much money on rebuilding stuff when local contracters did it MUCH cheaper and MUCH better, etc etc etc

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0912593/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=1

Pretty interesting, cause even though we already know they fucked up, you now get 1st hand accounts on some of the decisions being made, etc.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 20 Mar 2008, 10:27

How about not paying for armour vests, or sending in recruits with barely any training?

How about denying open homosexuals from serving, when they clearly want all the manpower that they get?

(The above are rhetorical questions, feel free to ignore them.)

BTW, what is McCain's policy on the War? (non-rhetorical, please answer.)

EDIT:- LOL, so he's basically a yes man.

The democrats should stop dicking around and pick a fucking representative already.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 20 Mar 2008, 10:47

You already answered the McCain question.

McCain, to me, seems like the kind of republican who puts Party-before-Country, and looks like he just wants a continuation of the current situation, so they can 'win'(!).

Yeah, the democrats should hurry up, I feel Hillary should step back, as Obama clearly has more chance against McCain, plus he seems (to me) like he would make a very good leader.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 20 Mar 2008, 22:20

Obama has no experience, that's what concerns me. Where's the substance in his speeches? I've no love for Hilary, but she's experienced and has the balls to do the job.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 20 Mar 2008, 22:51

It's not like Obama needs to be experienced, as he will surround himself with smart people, most likely.
The Bush-administration was full of old, very experienced guys, and they made mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake etc. So experience doesnt automatically mean you're more qualified. Experience is no good when in the past you've mostly been wrong and made mistakes.

Plus Obama himself seems very smart, and very righteous without hidden agendas etc.

Hillary is still accepting moneycheques from the big companies, Hillary has been supporting this wrong, dumb war, untill she started running fro president, Hillary is older, but older doesnt necessarily mean wiser, or better.

Plus, what I really dislike about Hillary, is 2 things.
1 is the way she has fought her campaign against Obama, which is basically a bit of a sneaky smearcampagne, which tells alot about her as a person and as a politician.
2, she's in the Liebermann-camp, when it comes to blaming scapegoats like the videogames or music, instead of blaming those who are responsible.
She's too much of a 'populist', when it comes to telling people what they wanna hear. All politicians have that somewhat, but a guy like Obama will say stuff people might not want to hear.

Same with Ron Paul btw. He was easily the smartest in the republican camp, everytime he spoke the truth and hit the facts on the head, instead of spouting populist bullshit. According to polls after debates, he WON pretty much every debate he was in (republican primary debates), yet his message is TOO honest for most people, plus the american people are indoctinated for way too long, so they take Paul's criticism and call him unpatriotic or anti-american, etc. And the media largely ignored Paul.

So no, I wouldnt like Hillary much. She comes across as a bit untrustworthy and sneaky. She's a good politician, and a good debater, but I feel Obame comes across as more sincere, more as a real leader, more independent, he's a brilliant debater and inspirer. Probably THE best speech-giver in the last 20-30 years orso... and I can see him bring people together, which will not happen with either Hillary (Republicans HATE her), and McCain (many people see him as an extension of the Bush-administration)

Obama vs McCain in a debate, Obame will win easily.
Hillary has too much dirt on her record, too many little mistakes, so she's too vulnerable, and she wont be able to get the cross-over vote, or the independent vote.

I would have loved an Obama-Ron Paul debate btw. Both are extremely smart and great debaters. I sincerely hope Ron Paul will run as an independent, cause that way he will still be involved in some of the debates, and he will still get his message across...

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 20 Mar 2008, 23:56

Yi-Long wrote:It's not like Obama needs to be experienced

As the most powerful man in the world I'd prefer it if he was.

So experience doesnt automatically mean you're more qualified.

I know. But this job is too important to take a chance. He's not applying for manager at McDonalds.

Plus Obama himself seems very smart, and very righteous without hidden agendas etc.

He may well be... but is it enough? I'm not syaing he wouldn't be good. (How could I know?) Just that I'm not as hip-hip-hooray convinced as many other are. He's untested.

Hillary is still accepting moneycheques from the big companies, Hillary has been supporting this wrong, dumb war, untill she started running fro president, Hillary is older, but older doesnt necessarily mean wiser, or better.

True. But at worst she's capable. She's been in politics for decades and knows the ropes. Two years ago it was Obama who?

She's too much of a 'populist', when it comes to telling people what they wanna hear.

But isn't that what Politicians are there for: to best reflect the interests of their people? Why is being populist automatically a bad thing?

Same with Ron Paul btw. He was easily the smartest in the republican camp, everytime he spoke the truth and hit the facts on the head, instead of spouting populist bullshit.

I liked that guy. He was a bresh of fresh air. But too controversial for any mainstream party.

So no, I wouldnt like Hillary much. She comes across as a bit untrustworthy and sneaky. She's a good politician, and a good debater, but I feel Obame comes across as more sincere, more as a real leader, more independent, he's a brilliant debater and inspirer.

But which is more important in being president? Good politician or basically a nice guy? If America wanted a nice guy they'd vote in Tom Hanks. Sometimes the bitch or the bastard is the best person for what is frankly a dirty job sometimes.

Probably THE best speech-giver in the last 20-30 years orso...

Really? I must've missed something. All I heard was a guy talking about "CHANGE" without ever expressing exactly HOW he was going to achieve it? I can talk about great ideas 'til the Cows come home... but unless I can turn it into policy what's the point? That's what I was saying about substance.

I hope he is as good as you think he is because he's got an excellent chance of winning.

Obama vs McCain in a debate, Obame will win easily.

My Dad has seen many of these debates, and whilst he had praise for Obama, he didn;t think he was any better than Hilary, and on the whole sometimes less impressive... but then my Dad thought that John Edwards was the best debater (and had the best policy ideas) of the three. So clearly my Dad is out of sync with the American public... lol.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 21 Mar 2008, 05:58

Heh, Ron Paul. A completely free market society wouldn't work, just look at Rapture in Bioshock.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 25 Mar 2008, 02:14

WOW and I thought I was the Quote-King

Agreed Yi-Long, this is an excellent documentary. I hope it gets a DVD release. I watched it when it first aired on BBC1. I had no idea they had fucked it up that badly.

The yanks literally had no plan for re-building Iraq and what is even more bizarre is the British government with all their decades of experience building countries did sweet FA to force the American government to have a plan. It's their war we'll just tag along.

Truly shocking!