Users rage against China's 'Great Firewall'

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 20 Jun 2007, 20:51

Scary but sadly true:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/internet/0 ... index.html

And to think it's likely in our lifetime China will be the next Empire:

China has opened up greatly over the last 15 years but it's still fundamentally a Communist country. I do find it out how America had a real issue with the USSR but seems happy to let China be a Communist country, as long as it gives it's people some rights.

Any country that denies it's people a democratically elected party is a worrying country IMO.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 20 Jun 2007, 20:58

USA NEEDS China's business, or else the USA will go bankrupt within weeks/months. So they are less critical then they were with the USSR.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 20 Jun 2007, 21:02

You're probably right. The USSR never opened up enough to allow business to flourish and thus get the USA interested.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 20 Jun 2007, 21:41

bradavon wrote:You're probably right. The USSR never opened up enough to allow business to flourish and thus get the USA interested.

The USA will only bitch and moan about another county's crimes if they have no business-interests/relations with that country.

Most American still think Saudi Arabia is 'on our side', with moderate muslims and laws. Yet try bringing a bible with you when you enter the country...(!)

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 21 Jun 2007, 08:20

Besides, who are we to say democracy is the only good thing in the world?

On paper that would be communisme (and in games like Civilization

) but for the greed of man...

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 21 Jun 2007, 10:14

I dont believe democracy is the only good way. In fact it's pretty flawed.
However, it seems to be the way, IF DONE RIGHT, that's the most fair.
However, democracy in the USA is a scam, and here in Holland it's also pretty close to a scam.

In America it's a scam cause only rich people can become president, and they can only become president when they dont piss off the special interest groups or the religious peeps. Plus Bush-Gore in 2000 was one of the biggest disgraces in political history, and many have died because of it. Which immediately also makes the US justice system a scam, cause those responsible will get away with it.

In Holland it's a scam because although we give votes to whichever party we like, we have too many parties, and in the end a couple of parties have to bundle up to make 1 majority that leads the country (while all the other parties form the opposition)
Plus the goverment has often made decisions which the majority of people heavily opposed, like the buying of very expensive and mediocre USA jetfighters (while there were better AND cheaper alternatives... so the decision to by the yanks' jets was more political than wise. They pushed through certain 'projects' like railways, even though we certainly didnt need them and were severely warned by researches that they will be more expensive to build then was originally calculated, and they wont be profitable.
Finally, we were scammed into 'The Euro', and we sold our guilder too cheaply, so people also lost money on the transition, plus many businesses and especially restaurants and stuff raised their prices right after the euro, so now everything is more expensive then it used to be.

So... 'democracy' is just a hollow phrase in many countries.

The best would be a very good, very smart, guy, maybe a few guys, who will lead with iron fist but does what is RIGHT. For the people.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 21 Jun 2007, 11:04

Yi-Long wrote:The best would be a very good, very smart, guy, maybe a few guys, who will lead with iron fist but does what is RIGHT. For the people.

The reality is that something like that would never occur. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, I believe is the phrase. Especially apt if you give the authority of ruling with an iron fist. Add to that the fact that what one person considers to be right is not what another thinks is right, and you'll end up with a dictatorship. It might start off benevolent, but it's not likely to stay that way.

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 21 Jun 2007, 16:40

Kurgan wrote:
Yi-Long wrote:The best would be a very good, very smart, guy, maybe a few guys, who will lead with iron fist but does what is RIGHT. For the people.
The reality is that something like that would never occur. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, I believe is the phrase. Especially apt if you give the authority of ruling with an iron fist. Add to that the fact that what one person considers to be right is not what another thinks is right, and you'll end up with a dictatorship. It might start off benevolent, but it's not likely to stay that way.

I know you're probably right. Esepcially here in the west it would not work. But I believe there are still a few countries who have 1 guy in charge, and the guy is doing great stuff for his people and the people love him. I have no clue what country it was, but I believe it was an asian country and an old guy. I know I know, that tells you nothing

But it was on tv once.

I agree that one man's right isnt not what another guy feels is right. But i do think you can still aim to please 90% of the country, and just make GOOD decisions, as in the morally right decisions, helping out the poor and stuff...
The right man could do that.
I dont think EVERYONE gets corrupted by power. However, I do feel there already is a certain ego involved with people getting into politics in the first place, and having an ego would probably mean you would be corrupted.

But yeah, very unlikely to happen.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 21 Jun 2007, 18:36

gojensen wrote:Besides, who are we to say democracy is the only good thing in the world?

A colleague of mine at work takes the same stance and I see his point but the alternative in reality is lack of free speech, lack of human rights etc . . . And that's supposed to be better? You'd prefer that?

I'd rather have flawed democracy any day.

romerojpg · Post by **romerojpg** » 21 Jun 2007, 19:22

China is a Hell Hole, who gives a shit about stupid firewalls and the net? not me when so many people are supressed, kidnapped, killed and treated like shit. Build a new dam, first kick out the millions of people who live in the area and give them nothing at all and if they dont move lock them in jail or worse!.

The country is fucked beyond words, a stupid internet thing is bollocks, only the rich people go on the net in China, in other words Hong Kong, the rest of the massive population couldnt give a flying shit, as they are kept down so far by the "Government", or evil dictators who try to hide everything and make cash for themself.
They are now building a new coal power station every 3.5 days! talk about mass global desicration, these guys are really going for it, they want to be the biggest at everything, including destroying the planet.

I still cannot beleve countries like this exist in out times, so fuck the net! give the poor people rights first I say.

bradavon · Post by **bradavon** » 21 Jun 2007, 19:56

romerojpg wrote:China is a Hell Hole, who gives a shit about stupid firewalls and the net? not me when so many people are supressed, kidnapped, killed and treated like shit.

Correct Mr. Obvious. That doesn't make this any less wrong. China is far from a hell hole. It's incredibly beautiful, with centuries of history. That's not my definition of hell.

romerojpg wrote:The country is fucked beyond words, a stupid internet thing is bollocks, only the rich people go on the net in China, in other words Hong Kong

Incorrect. While yes the majority of China lives on the poverty line Hong Kong is far from the only affluent city in China. You're very much mistaken. At least read the article and you'll see it's even talking about Hong Kong.

romerojpg wrote:They are now building a new coal power station every 3.5 days! talk about mass global desicration, these guys are really going for it, they want to be the biggest at everything, including destroying the planet.

Well to be fair they're only doing exactly what the Western world did before them.

Not that that's the point I agree.

EvaUnit02 · Post by **EvaUnit02** » 29 Jun 2007, 16:33

gojensen wrote:Besides, who are we to say democracy is the only good thing in the world?

On paper that would be communisme (and in games like Civilization ) but for the greed of man...

Isn't your country the prime example of socialism actually working? You may have a monarch and democracy, but let's face it Norway is really a welfare state, with high taxes and high standard of living.

gojensen · Post by **gojensen** » 02 Jul 2007, 10:03

Don't remind me

Remember I said something about the greed of man? That means I'm not very happy paying over 50% of what I earn to the government

It goes a little something like this...

My company pays taxes for everything it earns... from what is left they pay me wages...

The company pays a tax to be allowed to pay me my wages... (14.1%)
I then have to pay taxes from wages... (avg. 40% I think)
And everything I buy has a VAT (25%)

That's about 80% going to the government... on top of that I need to pay taxes for all my equities, properties, and other assets (like bank accounts)...

So yeah, we have high taxes!

but... granted, it's not the worst place to be living...

Could it be better? Hell yeah

I for one would like the government to not spend Billions on an Opera house in Oslo which only Oslo-folk really have a use for (and not that many really want)... to fund our "monarch" with Billions each year for them to travel the world and do ... nothing? And specifically not buy a damn house in Oslo for 30 million to allow Oslo folk a few more metres of beach each summer!

Yeah yeah... grumpy old men

Yi-Long · Post by **Yi-Long** » 02 Jul 2007, 13:45

Here in holland we have a huge tax as well. I wouldnt have a huge problem with it if education and health was free/cheap, and good.... but it's not.

I'd love to emigrate ASAP to another country. Personally, I'd like to live in Hong ong, Japan or Canada... but my girlfriend probably also has a say in it, and she seems to still enjoy being in Holland. Dont know how that will solve itself, but I really hope I'm capable of emigrating within a few years orso.

Markgway · Post by **Markgway** » 03 Jul 2007, 03:35

Democracy is perfect in ideology if not execution.

But it's still the only right way to run a society.