BNP on BBC's Question Time

[Markgway]

Starts in 10 mins.

Lolz @ the loony protestors on the news.

[grim_tales]

Oops sorry Mark, didnt realise you had started a thread, did you see it? IMO from what I saw it showed Griffin up as the racist, homophobic man he is.
"I spoke with a non violent member of the KKK" - what a wanker.

[bradavon]

I caught the second half but have it recorded. It was hilarious to see Griffin tie himself up in knots, his policies literally make absolutely no logical sense. You unravel them so ridiculously easily. He didn't even come across as a professional politician.

[grim_tales]

Agreed, it was very funny watching him try (and fail) to deny stuff he said and that his party isn't a racist party.
Made himself look even more of an idiot than I thought.
Bonnie Greer was good

[bradavon]

Bonnie was ace. She's clearly much, much more intelligent than Griffin is.

[grim_tales]

How hypocritical of him to demonise Islam when Christianity says the same things about women, also I thought this country is a secular country.
Griffin also thinks a woman should be in "the home", the tosser.

[bradavon]

Does it say the same thing? If so, it doesn't act upon them, in the way some Islamic countries do. I thought that was Sharia Law not Islam too.

[grim_tales]

Doesnt the bible say something like that a man can stone his wife to death if she commits adultery? Sharia Law says something similar.

[Markgway]

I think I was watching a different program from you guys.

Yes, Griffin is a racist. Yes, he got muddled on occasions. But considering it was one man against the odds he was suprisingly coherent in many of his arguments.

The BBC hand-picked a left-leaning panel (even their Tory was Asian and thus bait) and a left-leaning audience (making sure many of the questioners were of ethnic orgin to fuel the debate). It was an obvious ambush and whilst those who vote left (like yourselves) will feel their opinions of him were confirmed, I suspect a lot of middle-ground viewers (like myself) will have found the ganging-up unfair.

With the exception of Baroness Warsi, the only person to acknowledge the real reason why many vote BNP, the panel there to stick it to Griffin failed miserably. This wasn't a victory for the left, this was a victory for the BNP. The BBC have come out of this in a poor light (not least the blatantly biased chair David Dimbleby).

Jack Straw was terrible (as usual), and Griffin's unexpected comment about Straw's father being jailed for not fighting Hitler (something I never knew) must've cut like a knife; Huhne was slightly better, but predictible; Bonnie Greer was poor (as usual) - surprised to see you guys single her out for praise. I don't feel she did an effective job of debating with Griffin. All she did was sneer, and came across as condescending.

Under the rigged circumstances Griffin managed to score many points - arguably more than anyone else - which must've had the BNP haters up-in-arms. No surprise we've seen so much "he floundered... he was rubbish" in the media today. Frankly Griffin scares them now more than he did yesterday. The left thought they would wipe him out in a pre-planned attack. It didn't work.

His arguments about immigration caps, about failure to stand up to Islam, about English being ashamed of their own identity (and I'm obviously not even English), hit home, and no doubt many viewers will have taken note. You can be odious and right at the same time.

If the left thought QT would silence the BNP they've grossly misjudged the public, I feel (and fear). For although I found some of Griffin's arguments arresting (just because I don't like someone doesn't mean they're always wrong), I'm still well aware that at heart they're a racist party and one I could never bring myself to vote for. But I wonder just how many were won over by his rhetoric.

[grim_tales]

He made a good point on Iraq but he clearly wants a white britain not just less immigration.

[Markgway]

Yes, and that's why he's racist. But being a racist doesn't automatically make you wrong on everything to do with that and surrounding subjects. The reason why the BNP gain votes is not because a majority of BNP voters are inherently racist (I don't believe they are). It's because the major parties bury their heads in the sand. They don't listen to what the public want. They TELL the public what's good for them. Liberal ideals are stuffed down the throats of everyone - and if you even raise an objection you're demonised as an '--ist' or an '--ic'. Stifiling debate gives room for robust extremists like the BNP. Just imagine if those issues Griffin scored political points on were properly addressed by our politicians... what right-thinking person would ever dream of voting BNP? Think about it.

[grim_tales]

In our democratic society, it's right Griffin is allowed a say, even if he is odious (remember the Voltaire quote). But should we say anything goes?
You're right, debate shouldn't be stifled but voting for BNP surely isnt the answer to being pissed off with the main parties? I don't think many would disagree the Iraq war was wrong and caused the unnecessary deaths of many of our soldiers (and still does) but the amount of times Griffin tried to hide his agenda and dodge questions was apparent.
Who are you a supporter of? I think I'm kind of in the middle/liberal maybe but also lefty apologists for terror (eg that C4 drama Britz) make me very angry.
If not all BNP voters are inherently racist (maybe theyre not, dunno) they'll be in for a shock as surely racism forms a lot of his views or he tries to hide them.

I agree though, Griffin was easily picked apart as the debate was in London. What if it had been held where the BNP had won 2 seats?

[Markgway]

But should we say anything goes?

No, the law prevents that.

You're right, debate shouldn't be stifled but voting for BNP surely isnt the answer to being pissed off with the main parties?

It's not for me, but many working class whites feel it is. If only to send a message (which the main parties refuse to listen to).

the amount of times Griffin tried to hide his agenda and dodge questions was apparent.

Yes, he didn't do a good job of convincing 'us' he was not a racist. For that reason alone many will dismiss him, but some of his arguments were potent. Even racists can be right sometimes.

Who are you a supporter of?

Yikes. I honestly don't "support" any of them. But at this very moment I think I'd vote Tory. But not with a smile on my face. We just need rid of those incompetant arses at New Labour.

I think I'm kind of in the middle/liberal maybe but also lefty apologists for terror (eg that C4 drama Britz) make me very angry.

The left/liberal lelite/intelligensia/Guardianistas whatever you want to brand them have dragged this country to its knees. Started in the sixties and has finally reached breaking point. Britain needs to go right. Not far right or extreme right just middle right. Both the staunch liberals and the staunch facists have something in common: They're both dangerous to decent, ordinary people. The media (especially the BBC) is left-bias. Question Time proved that beyond doubt.

If not all BNP voters are inherently racist (maybe theyre not, dunno) they'll be in for a shock as surely racism forms a lot of his views or he tries to hide them.

I don't believe all BNP voters are racist, they're disenfranchised. When you feel no one is listening to you, you do stupid things to get attention. And judging by QT only the Tory rep grasped that.

I agree though, Griffin was easily picked apart as the debate was in London. What if it had been held where the BNP had won 2 seats?

Different story... but then we couldn't have that could we...?

[bradavon]

The BBC hand-picked a left-leaning panel (even their Tory was Asian and thus bait) and a left-leaning audience (making sure many of the questioners were of ethnic orgin to fuel the debate).

Bollocks! You're obsessed with left vs. right bollocks. There were BNP supporters in the audience and besides wake up. Everyone pretty much hates Griffin and the BNP. Left, Right or the chuffing Centre. It has nothing to do with leftee's, it's about basic tolerance, something Griffin doesn't have. Even his mother-in-law says he's a vile racist creature.

Few people would disagree would disagree immigration has been handled badly but few would go as far as Griffin wants, to deal with it.

You're middle ground? Ha ha that's hilarious. Again and again you've shown you vote right. There's nowt wrong with that (or voting left, as you seem to think there is) but don't pretend you're some how middle ground.

I do agree the questions were mostly directly pointed towards the BNP but then you have to ask, what do you expect? The BNP stand very much on their own, in their extreme opinions and it's expected they'd get some shit thrown at them.

This wasn't a victory for the left, this was a victory for the BNP.

There you go again with your left/right bollocks. You're obsessed with it.

not least the blatantly biased chair David Dimbleby

I've never thought Dimbleby to be biased. He's the chairman and it's his job to get the answers out of the questions asked.

Bonnie Greer was poor (as usual) - surprised to see you guys single her out for praise. I don't feel she did an effective job of debating with Griffin. All she did was sneer, and came across as condescending.

We must've been watching a different person. She came across as intelligent and very easily beat Griffin's points, she barely had to try, his points were so outdated and illogical. Agreed Straw was poor though.

Sure it's given the BNP a platform to air there views but they get that anyway. It's equally shown again what a racist and backwards party they are. You cannot have one without the other.

His arguments about immigration caps, about failure to stand up to Islam, about English being ashamed of their own identity (and I'm obviously not even English), hit home, and no doubt many viewers will have taken note. You can be odious and right at the same time.

You mishead, the BNP don't want a cap, they want to shut the gates completely. The Tories pointed out they wanted a cap though. Agreed we should do more to stand up to Islam but again it's his extremist beliefs about how to deal with it, are really no different from the Islamic extremists he purports to hate. Given his way, he'd probably bomb them back.

I've never got how English people are supposed to be afraid of their identity, go to a football game and you'll see plenty of people proud to be English. Being English, like being Scotish, like being Welsh, is being British and that's something the majority of people are proud of. Being British means sharing the same core values of respect, democracy, freedom of speech etc... etc...

[romerojpg]

Brad you mental.

[Markgway]

Bollocks! You're obsessed with left vs. right bollocks. There were BNP supporters in the audience and besides wake up. Everyone pretty much hates Griffin and the BNP.

Except for the 20% who said they'd seriously consider voting for him in a post-QT poll taken by (I think) The Daily Telegraph. Just because neither you nor I would vote BNP doesn't mean "everyone" feels the same.

Also the BNP support in the audience was deliberately stuck at the back. You heard them cheer despite attempts to keep them hidden. All of the questioners were firmly in the anti camp. Most were from ethnic minorities. The show was held in London - the city in the UK least likely to welcome Griffin's politics. The guests were all left-wing or minority-based. It was a series of deliberate disabling tactics. My point is that if the BNP is as hated as you seem to think they are - why was all this sabotage necessary? Why not take Griffin on in a fair fight and destroy his arguments? The answer is simple: The BBC was afraid that Griffin might just win people over (which, thanks to the bullying scandal, has ended up happening regardless).

Few people would disagree would disagree immigration has been handled badly but few would go as far as Griffin wants, to deal with it.

But he's seemingly the only one addressing the issue. He makes his toned-down solutions sound palatable. That's why he's potentially dangerous. By claiming there is no problem, Labour and co are playing into their hands. The general public knows there's a problem, but because the left is pro-immigration they will not accept any public concerns or objection. It's simply not what they want to hear, so they've closed their ears. But the BNP are listening and waiting. You want to know why the BNP has such support? People like you, Brad.

You're middle ground? Ha ha that's hilarious. Again and again you've shown you vote right. There's nowt wrong with that (or voting left, as you seem to think there is) but don't pretend you're some how middle ground.

How am I right-wing? Please explain your hilarity.

I see myself as a centerist more often that not. Sometimes centre-left, sometimes centre-right, depending on the issue in question. But I'm far from partisan. I support no particular party or movement.

I do agree the questions were mostly directly pointed towards the BNP but then you have to ask, what do you expect?

Actually, that was what I expected, and considering it's the BNPs first appearence I didn't have a problem with more than one race-immigration-etc related question being asked. That's really what people want to hear about. Perhaps if it hadn't be so obviously one-sided and heavy-handed the BBC would've gotten away with focusing almost solely on them. Even the non-race quesion was about a homosexual - more bait for the BNP. As if no one would notice.

There you go again with your left/right bollocks. You're obsessed with it.

Brad, try reading parts of newspapers other than the cartoons.

I've never thought Dimbleby to be biased. He's the chairman and it's his job to get the answers out of the questions asked.

He was more rude than usual to Griffin - although at one point he gave the game away by asking the others not to gang up at once which I thought was a funny "slip". I conceed he could've been worse, but much of the feedback condemned him. Did you listen to the Radio 5 post-show call in?

We must've been watching a different person. She came across as intelligent and very easily beat Griffin's points, she barely had to try, his points were so outdated and illogical.

I thought she was weak and dismissive. Rather than provide strong counter-arguments she, er, turned her back on him. And the "ice age" stuff missed the mark. I would have chosen a much stronger panelist. Imagine what a George Galloway would have done to Griffin. Also there should have been at least one other to-the-right panelist. I read that think tank chairman Douglas Murray was vetoed because he's opposed to open immigration and the BBC didn't want anyone to side even for a second with Griffin. He needed to be isolated throughout.

Agreed Straw was poor though.

Even the labour support thought he was piss poor.

Sure it's given the BNP a platform to air there views but they get that anyway. It's equally shown again what a racist and backwards party they are.

Only if you already thought that. Wavering voters might see it differently.

You mishead, the BNP don't want a cap, they want to shut the gates completely. The Tories pointed out they wanted a cap though.

Yes, I used caps as a catch-all term. I think The Tories have got it right.

Agreed we should do more to stand up to Islam but again it's his extremist beliefs about how to deal with it, are really no different from the Islamic extremists he purports to hate. Given his way, he'd probably bomb them back.

I don't recall him elaborating on how he'd stop Islamic extremism. The problem with an hour show is that you can only cram in so much talk.

I've never got how English people are supposed to be afraid of their identity, go to a football game and you'll see plenty of people proud to be English. Being English, like being Scotish, like being Welsh, is being British and that's something the majority of people are proud of.

The impression I (as a Scot) get is that the English are always looking for ways to de-anglicise themselves in favour of other cultures. You think of Scots, Welsh, and Irish, being proud, but not so much the English. You should be proud (certainly not ashamed). Although I'm not quite sure that Scotland's chest-puffing "nae'bdy's like us" is a positive thing.

Being British means sharing the same core values of respect, democracy, freedom of speech etc... etc...

Those are ideals... but I don't believe we live in that society you speak of.

[grim_tales]

Mark has a point, I'm scared the BNP might win people over (as it stands he didn't in that audience). He made himself look like an arse, but he should have been dealt with fairly even though things he said made me angry. It made me angry a person thinks the way he does.
I'd like to think I'm proud to be English/British (certainly not ashamed as Mark said), but while I'd wear an England footy shirt I'd never wear a Union Jack/England flag T-shirt, conversely.

[grim_tales]

This confused me:

... From The Guardian site:

The far right British National party is trying to shed its antisemitic past as part of a drive to pick up votes among London's Jewish community. The party, which could get its first seat on the London assembly if voter turnout is low next month, is campaigning in Jewish areas across the capital and attempting to play on what it sees as historical enmity between the Jewish and Muslim communities.

In one leaflet, handed out in north London last weekend, the party's only Jewish councillor, Pat Richardson, is quoted along with a picture of young Muslims holding a placard reading: "Butcher those who mock Islam."

"I'm in the BNP because no one else speaks out against the Islamification of our country," said Richardson. "Being Jewish only adds to my concern about this aggressive creed that also threatens our secular values and Christian tradition."

Doesn't make sense to me. BNP ARE racist and that guy mentions secular values (which I do think our society is secular) but also Christian tradition... what? Surely he knows what secular values are? If he's a Jew, he seems to want an uphold of Christian values but he's not a Christian

[bradavon]

The general public knows there's a problem, but because the left is pro-immigration they will not accept any public concerns or objection.

Not everyone in the 3 main parties are left! .

It's simply not what they want to hear, so they've closed their ears. But the BNP are listening and waiting. You want to know why the BNP has such support? People like you, Brad.

Then how come they've only managed 2 seats in parliament?

Sometimes centre-left, sometimes centre-right, depending on the issue in question. But I'm far from partisan.

When have you ever agreed with anything leftee?

I support no particular party or movement.

Neither do I.

Even the non-race quesion was about a homosexual - more bait for the BNP. As if no one would notice.

That's the thing. Homosexuality has nothing to do with the BNP's core policies, so why have a problem with it? It shouldn't have been bate. It wasn't about the white man, immigration, the EU or anything else like that. It just shows Griffin at least is a person of hatred.

Did you listen to the Radio 5 post-show call in?

No. What was said?

Imagine what a George Galloway would have done to Griffin.

Galloway is a fool, not especially intelligent, just a fool.

Also there should have been at least one other to-the-right panelist.

Agreed.

Those are ideals... but I don't believe we live in that society you speak of.

Obviously not 100% but compared to many, many, many countries. It's a whole lot better here.

I'm proud of many things British people have done. I don't see it as English, Welsh, Scottish but more British and European. What the British have achieved and what Europeans have achieved, throughout history.

Mark has a point, I'm scared the BNP might win people over (as it stands he didn't in that audience).

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/ ... griffin.do

[grim_tales]

"Only" 2 seats is a lot more than they managed before and they got the same votes as last time, but then they didnt win any seats 2 seats is still 2 too many for a party like BNP, IMO. Still, they were democratically elected fairly.

[Markgway]

I'd never wear a Union Jack/England flag T-shirt, conversely.

And why is that?

[Markgway]

Not everyone in the 3 main parties are left! .

The parties as a whole lean to the left.
Lib Dems>Labour>Tories
But I think you'll find that Britain has no substancial political right.
Unless you count the BNP.

Then how come they've only managed 2 seats in parliament?

So far. It could get worse.

When have you ever agreed with anything leftee?

I'm not the hard bastard you seem to think I am. There are many issues on which I'm liberal - I just don't take that to extremes. Sexuality, censorship, healthcare, bloodsports, etc. I'm tough on crime for sure - but that just seems a perfectly reasonable position to me.

Neither do I.

I thought you were a Lib Dem voter. My mistake.

That's the thing. Homosexuality has nothing to do with the BNP's core policies, so why have a problem with it?

You just know that the BNP isn't going to welcome gays with open arms. I think it was a fairly safe bet the reaction that question would get.

No. What was said?

About a 50/50 mix of 'Griffin showed himself up as a racist fool' and 'they bullied him... he made sense'. The BBC did not expect this divide I'm sure.

Galloway is a fool, not especially intelligent, just a fool.

Don't agree with the man's politics... but he's a brilliant debater. He would've torn Griffin to shreds.

Obviously not 100% but compared to many, many, many countries. It's a whole lot better here.

Britain isn't a world's worst candidate, but compared to what it was... Britain used to be one of the great countries in the world. Immigrants used to want to come here because it was great... now it's because they get free shit and the French are really mean. Crime, education, and culture is at an all time low. Labour have dragged this country to its knees.

I'm proud of many things British people have done. I don't see it as English, Welsh, Scottish but more British and European. What the British have achieved and what Europeans have achieved, throughout history.

Interesting perspective, but not one most non-English Brits would share I'm afraid. The worse Britain gets the more likely nationalists are to use that as an excuse to seperate from 'the power' (Westminster). What London does makes everyone suffer.

[grim_tales]

I'd never wear a Union Jack/England flag T-shirt, conversely.

And why is that?

Because those type of shirts/designs were hijacked by the NF/far right as fascist symbols and in no way would I want to associate myself with people and views like them.
Nowt wrong with a footy shirt though I think, it's strange

[Markgway]

Because those type of shirts/designs were hijacked by the NF/far right as fascist symbols and in no way would I want to associate myself with people and views like them.

Exactly my point. Can you imagine Scots allowing their flags to be hijacked by far-right groups. The English should reclaim what's theirs. I tend to think football shirts are a bit chavish myself. Unless you play there's really no need.

[grim_tales]

I sometimes do (may start again after Xmas)
I don't think the flag itself is racist, I don't see the flag flying (or say outside windows when footy is on) and think "racist".
Not all people who are proud of their country are racists and not all (I doubt most) racists are patriotic.